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Cruz Brothers
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I like the fast pace and movement. Movement seems restricted to dancing in and out (no jumping), which may limit strategy, or at least require something else to make up for the lack of movement. It's hard to see how it works when toe to toe, does it become a mash fest?
In real fighting, dodging when there is no attack generally leaves you open to get hit, and dodging when there is an attack gives you an opening to hit. I guess backing up is a defensive maneuver? What happens if you back yourself into the corner? That should be bad. Maybe movement strategy can be expanded by having backing up be beneficial (for avoiding attacks, setting up strong forward moving attacks), but detrimental if overused (by cornering yourself).
What are the glowing arms? What are the inputs? Are there high/low attacks? Strong/slow and weak/fast attacks? Combos? Special moves? Are there attacks that are punishable if you react in the right way?
It looks like you have some hit stop, are there decisions I can make during that time?
You have knock downs, is there a wake up game?
Can you describe what yomi (rock/paper/scissors) you have?
Hello Nate,
Thanks for the feedback, it's the main reason why we released this version, to improve the game!
About your points:
Jumping: Yes, since the game is about olympic boxing, that is a movement limitation. Fighters won't jump.
Walking in and out, is a defense and an attack move. If you walk towards the enemy and press any attack, you will perform an extra step that brakes your distante from him. We are studying a way to improve that, with an addition of a double tap move in the walking button, maybe a run in and out or a sprint. And a swith sides button. This last one will be tricky.
Going toe to toe: In the first version of the game we left the attacker open to be simultaneously attacked. But after some feedbacks we decided to give the attacker the hability to punish without getting attacked. What the adversary could do is to block and than attack back between the attackers punches. He also can counter, dodge or turn on the current special (which is also a dodge move).
Its a good idea to make backing up even more beneficial. :yes:
There is a difference between attacks, some are heavier than others. Also punching the torso of the opponent makes his stamina drain faster, he could blackout and that gives him damage when falling ou become dizzy and vulnerable for a whyle.
We will make that more visual evident in the future, also there will be a tutorial that teaches the player those things. But not all of them , we belive discovery is part of the experience!
It looks like you have some hit stop, are there decisions I can make during that time?
Yes, you could block and reverse, dodge or counter the attacks.
You have knock downs, is there a wake up game?
There is a K.O. if you stamina runs out, that is bad as i said , you loose health. But is not a simulation, the fighter comes back up and the fight continues.
Can you describe what yomi (rock/paper/scissors) you have?
The yomi is basically timing, Walking as you observed is a good tool, and we will improve that. Also countering and blocking in the right timing. Now we are in the stages of creating the final moves. I might make the first move of every sequence more predictable and slower, giving the opportunity for a response.
Sounds like you got a good handle on things!
Street Fighter has attack, block, throw as it's rock, paper, scissors. Block beats attack, attack beats throw, throw beats block. If you remove throw, you are left with "block beats attack", which means the guessing game is completely gone. You'd have to find other ways to encourage attacking by giving blocking drawbacks. There could be a block gauge so if you block too much your blocking stops working. Or "gray life" where blocking turns some of your life gray. After a delay you regain the gray life, but if you are hit you lose all the gray life. If you block it resets the delay. This means the more you block, the more you risk if you do get hit. Anyway, I think you want to encourage attacking as much as possible (a very defensive fighting game is usually boring) but still provide a variety of interesting options for defending.
In Street Fighter most moves cause hit stun but don't knockdown. Moves that do are called a "hard knockdown". This is beneficial because it sets up a "wake up game". When you are getting up, I might attack you, block (or do nothing, or back dash, etc), or throw. If you think I will attack and you block but I throw, you get thrown. If you attack and I block, you'll probably get punished. If you jump or attack and I attack, you probably get hit. The point is that if I land a hard knockdown move, I not only get the damage from the move but I set you up for a guessing game. This allows me to put further pressure on you and if you make another mistake during wake up, you might even get knocked down again and have to play my guessing game again. If Street Fighter didn't have knockdowns and wake up options, I think it would take a lot away from the game. It would be left with just the "who hits who" part and a lot of the "rush down" pressure would be gone. I don't know if it fits into your game, but it's interesting to think about.
Ohh i see what you mean! Really well considered, and noted!
I will think on that subject!
We are basically three persons developing this, so we improve each game element slowly.
I will get back to mechanics and animations real soon.
But thats what a good feedback looks like
Thanks!
No problem, I like fighting games a lot and discussing it (or even just rambling on and on!) is fun.
I wonder if the wake up game could be done with a sort of sub-game that triggers. Eg some games lock the players together and whoever mashes the most buttons wins the sub-game and the other player is stunned for a moment. Mashing isn't very interesting, but imagine during the fight you do some high risk, high reward move (sort of like a hard knockdown, but doesn't have to be a knockdown) that puts the opponent in a sub-game, in a state where they have to do something specific to get out. Maybe there's a bit attack with a slow startup, so lots of risk. But if you land this then the opponent is stunned, maybe they can't attack and you can follow up with many attacks until they block two attacks in a row (maybe attacks or high or low and have to be read and blocked correctly), or some other kind of stun exit condition. Maybe it's not good to have the high risk, high reward move be the only entry into the sub-game, it could happen from taking enough hits in a short period (like SF's stun gauge) or maybe when life gets low or when life runs out. The sub-game doesn't have to be a stun state of course.
The sub-game gives more variables to adjust character strengths, eg maybe a character has lots of ways to cause stun (eg combos ending in stun move) but are relatively weak outside of stun. Differences in characters is what made Suepr Punch Out for NES so great. The sub-game also adds some variety to gameplay. Ideally the normal game and sub-game affect or augment each other somehow and aren't completely separate. You want to flow between them smoothly.
Note: Images are a little bad to see here, they are from our Greenlight Campaign (better to see here) -> http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=554245507
Oh yes, it is a possibility. The thing is, that we run away from a stunned situation with a subgame, becouse there are some RPG elements in the Game Design. Attributes that the player should improve.
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The Toughness is the one that will avoid a sunning situation, and make that stamina higher. Also is the player's defense, when a hit lands what happens is
ToughnessBarTotalValue = ToughnessBarTotalValue - (enemyDamage - toughness)
I belive thats the math we are using. We want to encourage the player to upgrade his Characters and Training Center. That will improve his attributes and skills.
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So we want him, the player, to avoid the "get sunned" situation by evolving. If he got stunned, his mistake, and will pay for it during the fight.
Well that is one situation, but others have the customization influence. For example the players attack sequences. He will unlock new sequences and configure how he please.
You asked about the glowing arms, is to difference the classes special sequences. We will improve that visualy in the future, but for the beta the glowing is what we used.
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For the fist version there will be 4 different classes. You won't be able to mix special combos. If you are a Booster you have to use booster combos, and so on.
In the released BETA there is none of this things available. We wanted to get a feedback on mechanics. Talking here with you and discusting this is making me think in some alternatives for improving that. :yes: >
Having progression shouldn't limit your gameplay mechanics. Eg stun could still be a sub-game even though you allow upgrading toughness to make getting stunned harder, reduce stun duration, etc. Using stun solely for something that needs to be upgraded away seems like a missed opportunity, since I think stun makes sense to use as a sub-game, similar to knockdowns in Street Fighter.
Progression allows for strategy while the actual fights are tactics. Progression can be neat for the player, allowing customization, but the gameplay itself needs good depth to make the player want to keep playing and care about upgrading. Personally I find getting new moves and abilities very interesting, but updating stats is much less interesting. Increasing my damage by upgrading strength or increasing my toughness to reduce stun isn't very exciting IMHO. Sure, I earned the upgrade points, but it feels somewhat artificial to simply take less damage versus gaining some dodge move which I can incorporate into my gameplay and learn to use in the best way. If you haven't yet, Google about the game design player reward cycle, there are some good articles on it (can't find the one I was thinking of at the moment, sorry).
One thought is to allow stats to be shifted around but not increased, the total stat points would stay the same. This means you can specialize in eg strength but your other stats suffer. Maybe this is similar to your 4 classes. Maybe players need to adjust their stats to have an easier time winning fights against specific bosses, ala Super Punch Out.
I guess stat increases might make sense if you showed damage numbers, like an RPG. Maybe I have a 2x bonus upgrade for landing a big uppercut when the opponent is stunned, and I'd see the damage number, better showing me the difference between attack strengths. Like an RPG though, the enemies' stats would also be increasing to keep it challenging, so it's kind of fake but can still give the player a sense of self improvement. I think I still would prefer less stat focus and more on creative ways to affect gameplay/tactics.
Aaanyway, I think a good way to design progression is to put in all the features, as if everything were fully upgraded. Don't even think about progression yet, not at all. Make the game fun fully unlocked so it has great gameplay depth, then only after that is finished, pare down the features as much as possible (take away moves, reduce power, increase stun time, etc) but keeping the game playable. With both extremes you can then design a progression from starting out to fully upgraded that matches your tutorials or other goals.
Progression won't limit gameplay experience at any point. Just make it more interest by adding this customization option.
What might bring restrictions is the context, but our goal here was never to make more of the same...more of the same things that already exists, but creatively bring new content for the market. The proposal is that the game starts with fun moves and elements, you will just be able to get more of it through evolving.
This is awesome!!! LOL The uppercut is beautifull!
We do not wan't to fight with a tiple-A at all! haha unfare fight! Thats the main reason we went off ring in most stages and added to the fight ludic content.
About the boxing, Mike is fighting a different style of boxing, really common in Us and pro boxing. Less legs, more agressive and power punches.
There is a lot to explore from Olympic Boxing that is not in the game yet.
I will be busy using Spine until the end of this year, finishing all animation =)
I get ansious just to think about it! Still lots of work to be done.
Nate the game changed a lot since our last chat here.
Its possible to see a little bit of the new gameplay on this video.